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zaterdag 29 januari 2011

Eindpunt.blogspot.com

Anoniem heeft een nieuwe reactie op uw bericht "Ronny Naftaniel van het CIDI 33" achtergelaten: 

Zojuist is mijn hele weblog verdwenen! Kijk maar. Boodschappen die ik krijg:
"Helaas, de blog op eindpunt.blogspot.com is verwijderd."
"We hebben ongewone activiteit gedetecteerd in uw account."

Voor hulp en vragen moet ik inloggen bij Google - maar ook die accepteert mijn inloggegevens niet meer.

Sonja
Dan moet ik mijn mobiel nummer opsturen voor een verificatie code - maar die ontvang ik ook niet. 

Arab Regimes 22

Fear Extreme Islamists in the Arab World? Blame Washington

by: Jeff Cohen, t r u t h o u t | Op-Ed
Fear Extreme Islamists in the Arab World? Blame Washington
Protesters in the streets of Cairo, Egypt. (Photo: Ed Ou/The New York Times)
In the last year of his life, Martin Luther King Jr. questioned US military interventions against progressive movements in the Third World by invoking a JFK quote: "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
Were he alive to witness the last three decades of US foreign policy, King might update that quote by noting: "Those who make secular revolution impossible will make extreme Islamist revolution inevitable."
For decades beginning during the Cold War, US policy in the Islamic world has been aimed at suppressing secular reformist and leftist movements. Beginning with the CIA-engineered coup against a secular democratic reform government in Iran in 1953 (it was about oil), Washington has propped up dictators, coaching these regimes in the black arts of torture and mayhem against secular liberals and the left.
In these dictatorships, often the only places where people had freedom to meet and organize were mosques - and out of these mosques sometimes grew extreme Islamist movements. The Shah's torture state in Iran was brilliant at cleansing and murdering the left - a process that ultimately helped the rise of the Khomeini movement and ultimately Iran's Islamic Republic.
In a pattern growing out of what King called Washington's "irrational, obsessive anti-communism," US foreign policy also backed extreme Islamists over secular movements or government that were either Soviet-allied or feared to be.
In Afghanistan, beginning BEFORE the Soviet invasion and evolving into the biggest CIA covert operation of the 1980s, the US armed and trained native mujahedeen fighters - some of whom went on to form the Taliban. To aid the mujahedeen, the US recruited and brought to Afghanistan religious fanatics from the Arab world - some of whom went on to form Al Qaeda. (Like these Washington geniuses, Israeli intelligence - in a divide-and-conquer scheme aimed at combating secular leftist Palestinians - covertly funded Islamist militants in the occupied territories who we now know as Hamas.)
This is hardly obscure history.
Except in US mainstream media.
One of the mantras on US television news all day Friday was: Be fearful of the democratic uprisings against US allies in Egypt (and Tunisia and elsewhere). After all, we were told by Fox News and CNN and Chris Matthews on MSNBC, it could end up as bad as when "our ally" in Iran was overthrown and the extremists came to power in 1979.
Such talk comes easy in US media where Egyptian victims of rape and torture in Mubarak's jails are never seen. Where it's rarely emphasized that weapons of repression used against Egyptian demonstrators are paid for by US taxpayers. Where Mubarak is almost always called "president" and almost never "dictator" (unlike the elected president of Venezuela).
When US media glibly talk about the Egyptian and Tunisian "presidents" being valued "allies in the war on terror," it's no surprise that they offer no details about the prisoners the US has renditioned to these "pro-Western" countries for torture.
The truth is that no one knows how these uprisings will end.
But revolution of some kind, as King said, seems inevitable. Washington's corrupt Arab dictators will come down as surely (yet more organically) as that statue of Saddam, another former US ally.
If Washington took its heel off the Arab people and ended its embrace of the dictators, that could help secularists and democrats win hearts and minds against extreme Islamists.
Democracy is a great idea. Too bad it plays almost no role in US foreign policy.

Arab Regimes 21

Sadik Al Azm.


‘Passagiers van een Arabische luchtvaartmaatschappij worden in het vliegtuig niet begroet door een stewardess of de gezagvoerder, maar door een stem op een bandje die vlak voor vertrek letterlijk zegt: “Geloofd zij God, die ons dit instrument ter beschikking heeft gesteld om…” en dan volgt de plaats van bestemming.’ Met dit voorbeeld illustreert de zeventigjarige Syrische hoogleraar filosofie Sadik Al-Azm hoe anachronistisch Arabieren tegen de moderne werkelijkheid kunnen aankijken. In deze optiek maakt niet de techniek de reis mogelijk, maar God. Niet het menselijk vernuft houdt het vliegtuig in de lucht, maar Gods goedertierenheid. November vorig jaar kreeg Al-Azm tezamen met twee andere islamitische intellectuelen de Erasmusprijs voor zijn ‘onafhankelijke bijdrage aan de meningsvorming over religie en moderniseringsprocessen’ in de islamitische wereld. Stan van Houcke interviewde hem twee jaar geleden in Beiroet en recentelijk in Amsterdam over onder andere Samuel Huntingtons werk ‘Botsende Beschavingen.’

‘Het zwakke punt van Huntingtons theorie is dat hij beschaving reduceert tot cultuur, en cultuur vervolgens reduceert tot religie. En dan reduceert hij religie weer tot een soort archetypische constante die onwrikbaar en onveranderlijk is, met bepaalde kenmerken die nooit veranderen. En die archetypen kunnen vervolgens met elkaar in conflict komen. Lang vóór Huntington met zijn theorie kwam, volgden de islamisten en moslimfundamentalisten dezelfde redeneertrant. Ook zij reduceerden beschaving tot cultuur, cultuur tot religie, en religie tot een archetypische constante. En ook zij beschreven de islam als een gesloten geheel, dat onverenigbaar is met andere systemen, vooral met het westerse denken. Ik beschouw dit alles als een volstrekt a-historische benadering. Sterker nog: een antihistorische benadering. En dat is niet alleen onjuist maar ook gevaarlijk omdat het verschillen op de spits drijft. In werkelijkheid hebben culturen zich altijd aangepast aan andere culturen, hebben dingen van elkaar overgenomen, hebben elkaar beïnvloed. Huntington heeft veel geleerd van de islamitische fundamentalistische denkers. Niet alleen onderschrijft hij hun opvattingen, maar hij verwerkt tevens hun ideeën in zijn beeld van de westerse beschaving. De westerse beschaving in enge zin dan, want de westerse beschaving in ruime zin omvat ook de geschiedenis, de cultuur en de beschaving van het Midden-Oosten. Maar net als de fundamentalisten reduceert ook hij de westerse beschaving in enge zin tot een soort religieuze kern. Huntington heeft geen oog voor geleidelijke ontwikkelingen, voor de invloed die beschavingen op elkaar hebben en voor het feit dat ze soms ook met elkaar verweven raken.

De aantrekkelijkheid van Huntingtons theorie is dat het een simplistische verklaring is voor veel wat er in de wereld om ons heen gebeurt. Ik denk ook dat dit de verklaring is waarom zijn theorie zo goed viel in bepaalde westerse kringen. In onzekere tijden zoekt men een theorie die lekker bekt, het goed doet in de media en tegelijkertijd heel degelijk en aan de buitenkant geloofwaardig overkomt. Huntington geeft een simpele en tegelijk heel handige verklaring voor wat er in de wereld gebeurt. Om zijn theorie geloofwaardig te laten overkomen laat hij bepaalde zaken buiten beschouwing. Zaken als klassentegenstellingen, onenigheid over hulpbronnen, territoriale hegemonie, uitbreiding van macht en territorium, met andere woorden: de klassieke geschillen. Het probleem bij zowel de islamisten als Huntington is dat ze de oorzaken achter een conflict, die in feite vooral materialistisch zijn, sublimeren tot een conflict tussen twee filosofieën, twee manieren om tegen waarden aan te kijken, twee geloofsovertuigingen. Dat maskeert wat de echte en veel diepere oorzaken zijn van expansionisme en gewelddadige conflicten. Daarnaast speelt natuurlijk ook dat elke maatschappij, dus ook de Westerse, altijd een vijand nodig heeft, een tegenstander, een bedreiging van buitenaf, een bepaalde druk. Dankzij die druk van buitenaf ontstaat er een cohesie van binnenuit en kan men zo bepaalde doelen verwezenlijken. En als die druk er niet is, kan men hem verzinnen of overdrijven. Dat is in het Westen tijdens de Koude Oorlog vaak gebeurd, en de mensen die zich eraan schuldig hebben gemaakt, geven dat momenteel ook toe. Hetzelfde proces zagen we weer bij de zogenaamde massavernietigingswapens van Irak. Dat beschavingen soms met elkaar in conflict raken, op economisch gebied of omdat andere belangen botsen, is geen nieuwe gedachte. Het is een axioma in wat voor filosofie dan ook. Maar dat is heel wat anders dan de bijna apocalyptische botsing van Huntington. Dat is een absurde voorstelling van zaken, al was het maar omdat de islam volstrekt niet in staat is om zo’n dramatische botsing met het Westen aan te gaan. Oorlog of de dreiging van oorlog zijn in bepaalde omstandigheden een buitengewoon machtig middel om een bevolking te mobiliseren. Dat blijkt ook uit het Amerikaans buitenlands beleid. De Verenigde Staten is op wat voor manier dan ook altijd wel in oorlog met de een of ander. Zo om de drie jaar. Kijk bijvoorbeeld maar naar de oorlogen in Midden-Amerika. Daar ziet men het patroon. De VS is in feite altijd in oorlog. Hun imperium is op het Amerikaanse continent begonnen en intellectueel onderbouwd met de Monroe-leer en de Manifest Destiny-doctrine. Toen ik de afgelopen jaren aan Amerikaanse universiteiten college gaf, werd mij meermaals verteld: ‘Wij zijn het nieuwe Rome.’ Ook gewone mensen zeggen dat, alsof het een vaststaand feit is, niet als iets dat men moet beargumenteren. Ze zeggen dat zij het nieuwe Rome zijn. En soms is de vergelijking niet eens zo gek. Amerika is een imperium en daar kan de Arabische wereld nauwelijks iets tegen ondernemen. Nu de VS de hegemonie in handen heeft, zien we dat nog maar één ding telt: aan de macht blijven. En dat is het streven van elk rijk geweest. Goed functioneren heeft dan geen prioriteit, behalve als het spoort met de beperkte belangen van het regime.

Het ware probleem van deze regio is de stagnatie in de Arabische wereld. Die is weliswaar historisch verklaarbaar uit de eeuwenlange bezetting en onderdrukking, maar daardoor niet minder reëel en nog steeds onopgelost. Ik heb eens het volgende geschreven: ‘Wij (Arabieren. svh) hebben in ons leven ruimte gemaakt voor de ijskast, het televisietoestel, oliebronnen, gevechtsvliegtuigen, de radar… enzovoorts, maar de mentaliteit dat gebruik maakt van deze geïmporteerde producten blijft dezelfde traditionele mentaliteit die behoort tot de magische agrarische fase die aan de industriële revolutie voorafging.’ Daardoor is de Arabische wereld als verlamd zodra het gaat om zaken als authenticiteit, moderniteit, traditie, het oude en het nieuwe. Zonder ooit overeenstemming te vinden over hoe een dergelijk probleem effectief moet worden aangepakt. Een mentaliteitsverandering zou een stimulans zijn voor het bereiken van bepaalde doelen die de Arabieren zichzelf hebben gesteld. Die doelen zijn alleen te verwezenlijken als men de problemen oplost. Zelfs iets elementairs als het trotseren van de Israëlische expansiedrift, het in toom houden van de Israëlische begeerte naar Arabische hulpbronnen en Arabisch grondgebied, blijft zo onoplosbaar. En als je blijft aarzelen tussen de mogelijkheden, verspil je je energie en kun je niet de moderne basis opbouwen die noodzakelijk is om zelfs ook maar die expansiedrang te beteugelen. De enige plaats waar het negentiende eeuwse kolonialisme nog steeds voortduurt, is hier. In Afrika en op de andere continenten is het voorbij, maar dat negentiende eeuwse blanke kolonialisme duurt in deze regio nog steeds voort. Daardoor is een levensgevaarlijke situatie ontstaan waarbij van alles kan gebeuren. Niet alleen beperkte of grootschalige chaotische uitbarstingen, maar ook zelfdestructieve ontploffingen. Al-Qaida belichaamt deze ontwikkeling, het blind geweld, gepleegd door mensen die handelen vanuit de gedachte: ‘Ik vernietig mezelf en degenen die ik beschouw als mijn vijanden.’ Deze zogeheten Samson-optie behoort tot het wapenarsenaal van de zwakken. Ze kunnen hun toevlucht nemen tot bijvoorbeeld het gebruik van een ‘vuile bom.’ Ze weten wel dat ze niet kunnen winnen, maar ze laten de ander een buitengewoon hoge prijs betalen, zodat diens kracht een schijnkracht wordt en elke westerse overwinning uiteindelijk een Pyrrhus-overwinning zal blijken te zijn.

Het was de Amerikaan Henry Ford die verklaarde: ‘history is bunk, geschiedenis is flauwekul.’ Zoiets zal iemand uit het Midden-Oosten nooit zeggen. Als ik naar Europa ga en daar hoor dat een kasteel wel zeven- of achthonderd jaar oud is, dan denk ik: ‘Het komt dus net kijken.’ Wij meten ouderdom af in millennia, niet in eeuwen. Dat geeft je een heel andere kijk op het heden. De mensen in deze regio hebben een sterk ontwikkeld historisch besef. Soms zitten we zelfs wat te veel met ons hoofd in het verleden, zodanig dat het ons belet om in het heden de juiste beslissingen te nemen voor de toekomst. We kunnen nog genoeg leren van culturen die ervan uitgaan dat je soms het verleden even moet vergeten om actie te kunnen ondernemen in het heden. Daar heeft het Midden Oosten volgens mij behoefte aan. We zijn te veel gefixeerd op de geschiedenis, we zijn een slaaf van het verleden. Ten koste van het heden. Dat historisch besef werkt tevens als ballast. Het besef van traditie en verleden is zo sterk dat we erdoor geblokkeerd raken. Om iets te kunnen bereiken moeten we dat verleden, tijdelijk en bewust, kunnen vergeten. Maar niets wijst erop dat de Arabische wereld zich voorbereidt op of klaarstaat voor een nieuw begin. De Arabieren hebben hun rijkdom gebruikt om dingen op te kopen, met alles erop en eraan, maar dan niet het productieve deel. Ze kochten alleen de sleutel.

Ik zet vraagtekens bij de islam als ideaaltype. Overal waar moslims met elkaar discussiëren, zeggen ze altijd weer: De islam is zus of zo, en ze noemen dan een hele serie prachtige eigenschappen, overtuigingen, waarden en dergelijke. Dat hoor je van een koopman op de markt, dat hoor je van koning Fahd, dat hoor je van koning Abdullah van Jordanië, en zelfs van president Lahoud, die christen is. De islam waar ze het over hebben, lijkt permanent, constant en onveranderlijk te zijn. Een ideaaltype dus, dat aan de wereld wordt gepresenteerd alsof er verder niets anders over de islam te zeggen zou zijn. Ik heb veel meer belangstelling voor de islam als een levend geloof dat wortel heeft geschoten in allerlei culturen, tegen allerlei historische achtergronden, en in hoe mensen hun geloof beleven, er ruzie over maken, ermee worstelen, het aanpassen aan hun eigen situatie. Dat bedoel ik met een levend geloof. Als je naar de islam als levend geloof kijkt, zie je dat dat geloof zich in zijn lange verleden heeft aangepast aan een tribale samenleving, aan republieken, aan koninkrijken, aan een nomadisch bestaan, aan de grote stad. Het is heel flexibel. In de huidige discussies komt dit aspect van de islam doorgaans niet aan bod, en het speelt evenmin een rol bij hoe moslims naar zichzelf kijken. Ik daarentegen zie de islam liever als een religie die voortdurend in ontwikkeling is en verandert. Alleen op die manier kan de stagnatie geestelijk bestreden worden, want als men op die manier kijkt ontdekt men al snel dat de islam een ontwikkeling heeft doorgemaakt. Mensen maken hun eigen islam en omgekeerd maakt de islam ook hen. Het is een dynamisch historisch proces. Het is simplistisch om de islam te zien als een ideaaltype, als een onveranderlijk fenomeen. En aan dat simplisme bezondigen zich zowel de islamisten als de volgelingen van Huntington.

Natuurlijk zijn er verschillen tussen Oost en West. Ik herinner me een interessant hoofdstuk uit ‘De Vorst’ van Macchiavelli. Die werpt de vraag op: waarom is het zo moeilijk om een rijk zoals het Perzische rijk te veroveren, en zo makkelijk om het te besturen als je het eenmaal hebt veroverd? Terwijl het in Europa (ik spreek nu over de Middeleeuwen) juist heel makkelijk was om een land te veroveren, maar het daarna onmogelijk werd om het te besturen. De verklaring van Macchiavelli is eigenlijk heel logisch: Natuurlijk verdedigt een rijk zich. Het heeft een sterk leger. Maar als men dat leger weet te verslaan en daarmee de macht in handen krijgt, gehoorzaamt iedereen onmiddellijk de nieuwe heerser. Dus als men het eerste verzet heeft gebroken, gaat alles verder heel gemakkelijk. Maar in Europa waren er veel feodale edelen, overal. Men loopt zo’n gebied wel makkelijk onder de voet, maar er is geen bestuurlijke infrastructuur die de bezetter kan benutten. Die edelen beginnen dan een middeleeuwse guerrilla, met bondgenootschappen in steeds wisselende samenstelling om de indringer te verdrijven.

Ondanks alle grote verschillen is er toch een historische parallel te trekken tussen de Arabische wereld en het Ottomaanse rijk. Net als wij nu werden de Ottomanen destijds geconfronteerd met een veel sterkere moderne cultuur, die technologische een geweldige voorsprong bezat. De elite in Istanboel besefte dat men moest moderniseren. Maar net als de Sovjetperestrojka kwam de tanzimat, de Ottomaanse vernieuwing, te laat en mislukte dan ook. Weliswaar duurde de doodstrijd van het Ottomaanse rijk veel langer, maar toch ging het na de Eerste Wereldoorlog ten onder. Dat leidde weliswaar niet tot de politieke bevrijding van de Arabieren, maar de ondergang schiep wel een geestelijke vrijheid. Wat we nu ons ‘Arabisch Ontwaken’ noemen, de bewustwording die in het laatste kwart van de negentiende eeuw begon en tot aan de Eerste Wereldoorlog voortduurde, was de belangrijkste poging om de mentaliteit van de mensen hier ingrijpend te veranderen. Maar die Arabische renaissance is altijd bijzonder tweeslachtig geweest. Je kunt niet echt zeggen dat het mislukt is, maar ook niet dat het geslaagd is. In zekere zin zien veel intellectuelen, vooral progressieve, zich als een verlengstuk van die renaissancebeweging, van die Verlichting. Ook ik plaats me in die traditie. Wij zitten op dezelfde lijn als onze Ottomaanse voorgangers: als we niets doen, gaan we eraan. We zijn oprecht ervan overtuigd dat we onze samenleving ingrijpend moeten veranderen. Doen we dat niet dan zullen we daar een extreem hoge prijs voor betalen. Dan worden we gemarginaliseerd, dan worden we een voetnoot in de geschiedenis. Dat besef leeft steeds sterker in de Arabische wereld. We beseffen dat het om ons voortbestaan gaat, om leven of dood.

Onze economieën zijn op olie gebaseerd. Vaak vergelijk ik onze situatie met die van de Spanjaarden die in de Nieuwe Wereld op jacht gingen naar goud. De Spanjaarden verspilden hun rijkdom. Ze bouwden heel veel paleizen, kerken en kathedralen en leidden een luxe leventje. De Engelsen en zeker ook Hollanders die de Spaanse vloten overvielen, hebben die rijkdom benut om een productieve economie op te zetten, een industrie, en later ontstond daaruit de Industriële Revolutie. De Arabieren hebben meer van de Spanjaarden weg. Het oliegeld wordt weggesmeten aan moskeeën. Iedereen wil de grootste ter wereld bouwen. Ze hebben hun kansen vergooid. Dan kun je eindigen zoals Spanje is geëindigd, nadat het daarvoor een Europese grootmacht was geweest. Wij bevinden ons in een vergelijkbare situatie. Ik denk dat Max Weber gelijk had met zijn stelling dat de protestantse ethiek de basis vormde van het moderne kapitalisme. Degenen die de reformatie tot stand hadden gebracht en de protestantse ethiek aanhingen, konden hun rijkdom productief benutten, terwijl de oude katholieke ethiek failliet ging. Spanje maakt pas sinds kort deel uit van de ontwikkelde wereld, het moderne Europa. Ik zou willen dat ook de Arabische wereld aansluiting vond bij dat Europa. Het staat misschien wel op de politieke agenda, maar voorlopig is daar nog geen sprake van. Momenteel speelt de integratie van West- en Oost-Europa; het zal nog wel even duren voordat wij aan de beurt zijn. Turkije wil graag worden behandeld als Griekenland of Spanje, maar ze ondervinden nog veel weerstand. Amerikanen als Rumsfeld noemen het avondland weliswaar ‘het oude Europa,’ maar ik zou het nog niet willen afschrijven. Het lijkt erop dat het in staat is om zichzelf te vernieuwen via de Europese Unie. Aan deze kant van de Middellandse Zee zijn we zeer onder de indruk van de evolutie die in een mensenleven als dat van mij heeft plaatsgevonden. Van de Kolen- en Staal Gemeenschap die na de Tweede Wereldoorlog haar intrede deed tot aan het Europese Parlement en de Europese Unie. Daar zijn we hier heel jaloers op. Je kunt niet zeggen dat Europa zichzelf heeft uitgeput of dat het een marginale rol speelt. Daar ben ik het volstrekt niet mee eens. Voor de Arabische wereld is het Europese model veel aantrekkelijker dan het Amerikaanse.’

De Humanist, februari 2005

http://home.planet.nl/~houck006/alazm.html

Arab Regimes 20




Neil van der Linden

 aan yahooneil
details weergeven 10:16 (7 uren geleden)


Onderwerp: Doorst.: Syria in the Wake of the Egyptian Unrest



Begin forwarded message:

From: Stratfor <noreply@stratfor.com>
Date: 28 januari 2011 19:01:38 GMT+01:00
To: erikk <sprx1001@mac.com>
Subject: Syria in the Wake of the Egyptian Unrest

Stratfor logo

Syria in the Wake of the Egyptian Unrest

January 28, 2011 | 1700 GMT
Syria in the Wake of the Egyptian Unrest
MOHAMMED ABED/AFP/Getty Images
Egyptian protesters confront riot police in Cairo on Jan. 28
Syria reportedly suspended Internet services Jan. 28. The suspension comes as demonstrations in Egypt continue, prompting Cairo to shut down Internet services to stop the flow of information and prevent protesters from mobilizing via social networking sites. The Syrian telecommunications minister has denied this disconnection.
Syria already had restricted Internet communication and cell phone services in the aftermath of Tunisian riots to prevent the spread of unrest. The current political uncertainty in Egypt is of much greater concern to the Syrian government than the unrest in Tunisia, due to both geographical proximity and historical similarity between the two countries. As demonstrations in Egypt attract wider international media attention, Damascus’ fears of a spillover effect in Syria have risen.
Given that ruling Alawites constitute less than 20 percent of the population in Syria and rule the Sunni majority with a heavy hand, the Syrian ruling elite has even more reason to fear that Syrians could view Egyptian unrest as an example. STRATFOR sources in Syria indicated that the Syrian government ramped up security measures after the Tunisian riots and that those measures reached unprecedented levels after the ongoing unrest in Egyptian cities began. To this end, the Syrian security apparatus is currently keeping a close eye on youth activities in the country, such as at Internet cafes.
Currently, nothing indicates that Egyptian-style unrest is simmering Syria, but given the structure of the political regime and economic conditions, Syria will remain a key country in the region to watch.

Arab Regimes 19

Mohamed ElBaradei: "If Not Now, When?"

by: Robert Naiman, t r u t h o u t | News Analysis
Mohamed ElBaradei: "If Not Now, When?"
Pro-democracy leader Mohamed El Baradei is calling for Western leaders to explicitly condemn Egypt's current President Hosni Mubarak. (Photo: Lukas Beck / The New York Times)
If Western leaders, who have backed the dictator Mubarak for 30 years, cannot stand before the Egyptian people today and say unequivocally, "we support your right of national self-determination," when can they do it?
That's the question that Egyptian democracy leader and Nobel laureate Mohamed ElBaradei has put before Western leaders today.
Speaking to The Guardian UK in Cairo, before the planned protests today, ElBaradei stepped up his calls for Western leaders to explicitly condemn Mubarak, who, as The Guardian noted, has been a close ally of the US:
"The international community must understand we are being denied every human right day by day," he said. "Egypt today is one big prison. If the international community does not speak out it will have a lot of implications. We are fighting for universal values here. If the west is not going to speak out now, then when?"
Giving forceful illustration to ElBaradei's words that "Egypt today is one big prison," Egyptian police later doused ElBaradei with a water cannon and beat supporters who tried to shield him, AP reported, then trapped ElBaradei in a mosque by surrounding it with tear gas:
Police fired water cannons at one of the country's leading pro-democracy advocates, Mohamed ElBaradei, and his supporters as they joined the latest wave of protests after noon prayers. They used batons to beat some of ElBaradei's supporters, who surrounded him to protect him.
A soaking wet ElBaradei was trapped inside a mosque while hundreds of riot police laid siege to it, firing tear gas in the streets around so no one could leave.
As I can attest from personal experience, having been under "hotel arrest" in Egypt during the Gaza Freedom March a year ago, this is a standard tactic of Egyptian police - prevent you from participating in a demonstration by detaining you where you are.
What does it say that ElBaradei, a Nobel Prize winner, the former head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, a former assistant to the Egyptian foreign minister, not to mention a 68-year-old man - is not allowed to peacefully raise his voice in protest against the Egyptian government?
Some folks in Washington still seem to be laboring under the illusion that the US can wash its hands of this matter, like Pontius Pilate.
If the Egyptian government were not one of the largest recipients of US "foreign aid," largely military "aid," it might be a different story. If the protesters in Egypt weren't painfully aware that the US has long backed Mubarak to the hilt, it might be a different story.
But that's not the world in which we live. The world in which we live is the one in which people in Egypt know that the US has backed Mubarak to the hilt. FDR famously said of the Nicaraguan dictator Somoza, "He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch." But FDR didn't say that in 2011. The world has changed. Expectations have been raised. US leaders today have to meet a higher standard today. "Our son of a bitch" isn't going to wash on the streets of Cairo.
ElBaradei told CNN on Tuesday:
"I was stunned to hear Secretary Clinton saying that the Egyptian government is 'stable,' and I asked myself at what price stability. Is it on the basis of 29 years of martial law? ... Is it on the basis of rigged elections? That's not stability. That's living on borrowed time. Stability is when you have a government that is elected on a free and fair basis. And we have seen how elections have been rigged in Egypt, we have seen how people have been tortured. And when you see today over 100,000 young people, getting desperate, going to the street, asking for their basic freedoms, I expected to hear from Secretary Clinton ... democracy, human rights, freedom."
In cities across Egypt today, thousands of people, young and old, secularists and Islamists, Muslims and Christians, workers, lawyers, students and professors, have placed their bodies on the line. Their willingness to sacrifice forces us to consider ElBaradei's question: if not now, when? As Rabbi Hillel said,
If I am not for myself, who will be for me?
If I am only for myself, what am I?
If not now, when?
http://www.truth-out.org/mohamed-elbaradei-if-not-now-when67255

Ronny Naftaniel van het CIDI 33

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhrdVLTsmSCo6O8evO1BRX1s35Wr-pED33YnTyIN-6WcPzjA5Wvmgroj_0H5EWTjX49q0qaMu5ghjCOaAUL5tLYX9jPTxs_at44DG9teCV63LrGvy6TWotvUBnTFi0grA75fkncag/s1600/RonnyNaftaniel.jpg

'Jood bij Nablus doodgeschoten door (waarschijnlijk) Palestijn, nadat de Palestijn van zijn land was beroofd. Waarschuwingsschoten waren tevergeefs.'

De directeur van het CIDI steunt het vermoorden van Palestijnen. Wordt het geen tijd een klacht bij justitie tegen hem in te dienen?

Sonja heeft een nieuwe reactie op uw bericht "Israel als een Schurkenstaat 325" achtergelaten:
Naftaniël heeft een doodziek gevoel voor humor. Twitter:

RonnyNaftaniel
Ronny Naftaniel
Palestijn bij Nablus doodgeschoten door (waarschijnlijk) kolonist, nadat deze met stenen was bekogeld. Waarschuwingsschoten waren tevergeefs

Jominee Johan van den Berg
@RonnyNaftaniel Ja, da's ook een lezing.... als iemand met stenen gooit, ren je weg, en dan ga je niet iemand doodschieten.

hoterminus Hotel Terminus@RonnyNaftaniel @


Jominee O, da's Naftaniëls derde keer al met stenen. 1e. bleken geen stenen, 2e. bleken eieren, en nu alweer stenen? ROFL

RonnyNaftaniel
Ronny Naftaniel
@hoterminus Dit keer waren het galstenen.

hoterminus Hotel Terminus
@RonnyNaftaniel O wat zal die jongen zijn moeder daar om lachen #sicko

En pakt u nu even een zakdoekje voor het echte slachtoffer:

RonnyNaftaniel
Ronny Naftaniel
@hoterminus Nee, die moeder zal zeker om jou lachen toen je mijn bericht ridiculiseerde.

Arab Regimes 18



A Manifesto for Change in Egypt

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Egyptian police used water cannon against Nobel laureate and pro-democracy leader Mohamed ElBaradei and his supporters as anti-Mubarak protests heated up Friday. Then ElBaradei was put under house arrest as riot police used tear gas and rubber bullets on protesters.
On the eve of his return, the former U.N. official who is the Mubarak regime's most high-profile opponent shared his thoughts on the young people who’ve taken to the streets, political Islam, and the role of the United States. Plus, full coverage of the protests in Egypt
When Egypt had parliamentary elections only two months ago, they were completely rigged. The party of President Hosni Mubarak left the opposition with only 3 percent of the seats. Imagine that. And the American government said that it was “dismayed.” Well, frankly, I was dismayed that all it could say is that it was dismayed. The word was hardly adequate to express the way the Egyptian people felt.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Then, as protests built in the streets of Egypt following the overthrow of Tunisia’s dictator, I heard Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s assessment that the government in Egypt is “stable” and “looking for ways to respond to the legitimate needs and interests of the Egyptian people”. I wasflabbergasted—and I was puzzled. What did she mean by stable, and at what price? Is it the stability of 29 years of “emergency” laws, a president with imperial power for 30 years, a parliament that is almost a mockery, a judiciary that is not independent? Is that what you call stability? I am sure not. And I am positive that it is not the standard you apply to other countries. What we see in Egypt is pseudo-stability, because real stability only comes with a democratically elected government.
If you would like to know why the United States does not have credibility in the Middle East, that is precisely the answer. People were absolutely disappointed in the way you reacted to Egypt’s last election. You reaffirmed their belief that you are applying a double standard for your friends, and siding with an authoritarian regime just because you think it represents your interests. We are staring at social disintegration, economic stagnation, political repression, and we do not hear anything from you, the Americans, or for that matter from the Europeans.
So when you say the Egyptian government is looking for ways to respond to the needs of the Egyptian people, I feel like saying, “Well, it’s too late!” This isn’t even good realpolitik. We have seen what happened in Tunisia, and before that in Iran. That should teach people there is no stability except when you have government freely chosen by its own people.
Of course, you in the West have been sold the idea that the only options in the Arab world are between authoritarian regimes and Islamic jihadists. That’s obviously bogus. If we are talking about Egypt, there is a whole rainbow variety of people who are secular, liberal, market-oriented, and if you give them a chance they will organize themselves to elect a government that is modern and moderate. They want desperately to catch up with the rest of the world.
Article - Egypt Protests GAL LAUNCH
Victoria Hazou / AP Photo
Instead of equating political Islam with al Qaeda all the time, take a closer look. Historically, Islam was hijacked about 20 or 30 years after the Prophet and interpreted in such a way that the ruler has absolute power and is accountable only to God. That, of course, was a very convenient interpretation for whoever was the ruler. Only a few weeks ago, the leader of a group of ultra-conservative Muslims in Egypt issued a fatwa, or religious edict, calling for me to “repent” for inciting public opposition to President Hosni Mubarak, and declaring the ruler has a right to kill me, if I do not desist. This sort of thing moves us toward the dark ages. But did we hear a single word of protest or denunciation from the Egyptian government? No.
We are staring at social disintegration, economic stagnation, political repression, and we do not hear anything from you, the Americans, or for that matter from the Europeans
Despite all of this, I have hoped to find a way toward change through peaceful means. In a country like Egypt, it’s not easy to get people to put down their names and government ID numbers on a document calling for fundamental democratic reforms, yet a million people have done just that. The regime, like the monkey that sees nothing and hears nothing, simply ignored us.
• Leslie H. Gelb: Obama’s Risky Path in Egypt

• Mike Giglio: Inside Egypt’s Facebook Revolt
As a result, the young people of Egypt have lost patience, and what you’ve seen in the streets these last few days has all been organized by them. I have been out of Egypt because that is the only way I can be heard. I have been totally cut off from the local media when I am there. But I am going back to Cairo, and back onto the streets because, really, there is no choice. You go out there with this massive number of people, and you hope things will not turn ugly, but so far, the regime does not seem to have gotten that message.
Each day it gets harder to work with Mubarak’s government, even for a transition, and for many of the people you talk to in Egypt, that is no longer an option. They think he has been there 30 years, he is 83 years old, and it is time for a change. For them, the only option is a new beginning.
How long this can go on, I don’t know. In Egypt, as in Tunisia, there are other forces than just the president and the people. The army has been quite neutral so far, and I would expect it to remain that way. The soldiers and officers are part of the Egyptian people. They know the frustrations. They want to protect the nation.
But this week the Egyptian people broke the barrier of fear, and once that is broken, there is no stopping them.
Mohamed ElBaradei was awarded the 2005 Nobel Peace Prize along with the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency, which he headed at the time. Since his retirement at the end of 2009, he has emerged as a political force in his native Egypt. His book, The Age of Deception: Nuclear Diplomacy in Treacherous Times will be published in June.
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For inquiries, please contact The Daily Beast at editorial@thedailybeast.com.
January 26, 2011 | 7:19pm
Comments (59)
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Dr_SwampGas

That governmnet in Egypt is clearly anything but "stable". In fact, it is showing every sign of internal rot and is not likely to outlast the aging dictator. The main question now is what will come afterwards...

Clearly the attempt to have "elections" that produced Soviet-style results is not satisfactory.
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7:35 pm, Jan 26, 2011

a10drxtc

and that is different from America?? George Bush stole both elections with election fraud first in Florida then second one in Ohio...i think Americans need to stop being so arrogant and practice what we preach and fix our own system first...remember the wise words of Jesus "stop worrying about the splinter in your brothers eye while you have a plank in your own eye"...this is the reason why the world hates America..this is an arrogant people who have a sense of entitlement...we are a greedy and selfish people (just ask any homeless person..i have seen arrogant pompous NYU students suggest to the homeless that they should commit suicide as a solution to their problems)
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9:18 pm, Jan 26, 2011

Dr_SwampGas

I am well aware of our failings as a society. I would only say that if they're going to have a revolution in Egypt then let them get on with it. It's long overdue and no one should stand in its way.
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10:35 pm, Jan 26, 2011

dbro0009

Daily Beast, why are you ignoring the recently leaked PALESTINE PAPERS. stop being cowards. it is important!
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10:25 pm, Jan 27, 2011

purenordic

egyptians arise! you have nothing to lose but your chains! americans salute you...even if our government does not.
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1:03 am, Jan 27, 2011

JAGUAR6CY

The simple statement "real stability only comes with a democratically elected government" is not true. Please read "World On Fire" for an objective analysis of this problem.
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8:09 pm, Jan 26, 2011

pjsoft

Thanks for the heads up on "World of Fire." It is available in ebook.
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9:10 pm, Jan 26, 2011

David Turner

This is the same Mohamed ElBaradei who, in addition to being a Nobel laureate was also responsible as head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, the same ElBaradei under whose careful scrutiny, or was it benign neglect, Iran apparently progressed along the path toward a nuclear weapons program in broad daylight. Now there's a future president of Egypt, already well connected to Iran and Ahmadinejad, flanking Israel, Jordan and the oil-rich Arabian Peninsula!
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8:21 pm, Jan 26, 2011

bigvic

David turner, if nuclear weapon is good for israel why is it bad for iran or don't they have "second amendment" rights.
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12:48 am, Jan 27, 2011

steinind

Are you serious? Comparing the littlest kid in the neighborhood - who has had to defend himself against everyone else around him ever since he showed up - to a nation that scares even those who have tried to gang up on that little guy? Suggesting that a peoples right to defend themselves against the development of tyranny WITHIN their OWN gov't should be the same for a lunatic tyrant who has stated he is itching to begin a conflagration - even if it means the destruction of his own nation!? This needs to be explained to you!?
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1:30 pm, Jan 27, 2011

bigvic

steinnd, well if that is your point then iran needs the weapon to defend itself from america and its allies cause in this case iran is the little guy.
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7:38 am, Jan 29, 2011

James38

ElBaradei stated in December 2008 that Iran's nuclear program was legal. He stated that there is no evidence that Iran is building toward nuclear weapons. He has shown no favoritism to Iran, and has made clear statements about the access given to international inspectors. He has no liking for dictatorial regimes anywhere, and is to all evidence an honest man. If we had listened to him when he clearly stated that Iraq had no nuclear weapons program and no WMD, instead of believing the lies of Bush/Cheney, how many US and Iranian citizens would still be alive? 

Saddam was a monster, and Ahmadinejad is probably worse, but working subtly for regime change is far better than resorting to war. Unless there is clear evidence that Iran is developing a weapon, diplomacy is the answer.

The whole stupid Iraq war started by Bush/Cheney was a mistake, and ElBaradei tried his best to prevent it. We seriously need world leaders of his quality, and I profoundly hope he will survive his heroic trip to Egypt.
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1:00 am, Jan 27, 2011

Sam Steele

The West has supported "authoritarian" regimes in the Arab World as opposed to "fundamentalist" regimes because it has always been a question of choosing bad and worse. If Mohammed El-Baradei can bring democracy to Egypt, that's great. Everybody wants to see democracy in the Arab World, particularly in Egypt. The problem with El-Baradei is that, as a secularist, he's a dinosaur, regardless of his Nobel Prize. The Arab Street doesn't come across westernized intellectuals like El-Baradei in their day-to-day dealings but Muslim clerics who give voice to their frustrations and preach that Allah is God and Mohammed is God's Prophet. If the Arab urban poor have been to school, chances are they have only been to Koranic madrassahs, where they are taught to memorize the Koran by rote. In his own way, Mohammed El-Baradei is just as out of touch with the people as Hosni Mubarak.
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8:22 pm, Jan 26, 2011

a10drxtc

yeah, Americas definition of democracy is the 51% imposing their views on the 49%...Bush cheated his way to the presidency with just 47.8% of the vote..
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9:22 pm, Jan 26, 2011

dxgmmpa

I believe you have a serious lack of appreciation or understanding of the nature of government by the people for the people. Despite your hatred for Bush he has been gone for two years and you now have what you want. Why are you so unhappy. Be happy and enjoy what you have while it lasts. 2012 is coming and the people will decide on the next government for another 4 years not for life as it is in Egypt and in the other 22 Islamic dictatorships. Let the Egyptian people sort it out. They should get what they want as long as they do not impose on their neighboring countries. This is the major source of world conflict for the last 4000 years. 

America needs to stay out of Egyptian affairs until the people sort out what source of government they want to live under. There in is the real problem. That government may be oppressive to its people and not be friendly to American interests and its neighbors. It also may not be the will of the people. There may be influences by outside dictatorships that want to expand their power. 

God Bless America and the Republic for which it stands. All we have to worry about are the Clintons, Bushes, and the Obamas. Every 4 years we have a chance to correct our mistakes. 
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3:34 am, Jan 27, 2011

T1Brit

What would your solution be to a 51% majority vote then genius?

Cut the country in half with a pair of scissors?
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3:38 am, Jan 27, 2011

bigvic

sam steele, so the people are too stupid to know what is good for them.
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12:45 am, Jan 27, 2011

T1Brit

But... the Muslim brotherhood are waiting in the wings.

The ghost of Sayyid Qutb is stirring.

Do you wonder that the western countries are not eager to see the result of an Egyptian free election?

Look what happened in Algeria. In Iran. In Gaza. In Lebanon?

Many do not share your optimism Mr ElBaradei.
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8:22 pm, Jan 26, 2011

bigvic

so in that case we only support democracy only when it serves our interest.How clever.
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12:43 am, Jan 27, 2011

T1Brit

Yes - you only support democracy so long as the people who win don't say they are going to abolish democracy.

It is called a paradox. I suppose you would be happy to see Egypt turn into another Islamo-fascist state.

Yeah you probably wouldn't mind that. That really is clever.
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3:41 am, Jan 27, 2011

bigvic

T1Brit, unlike you my support for democracy is unconditional.i hardly see any difference between what the islamists do in arab world and what the christain right do over here.
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10:18 am, Jan 27, 2011

T1Brit

bigvic - your support for democracy is not unconditional - it is simplistic and ill-thought out.

One of the great weaknesses of democracy is that under certain conditions the majority can be persuaded to to vote for the enemies of democracy itself.

Therefore Democracy accepts any result - except the abolition of democracy.

A child can understand this - why can't you.
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12:08 pm, Jan 27, 2011

Jim McDermott

If there hadn't been a west, TI, then we obviously wouldn't be having a discussion about our culpability, would we? If you're suggesting that Egypt et al would have done exactly this without our malign influence, well, you've got me, because I don't do counter history, as it's fantasy. All I can speak to is our real, actual, concrete history in the region. And if you're suggesting that it's a benign one, then you and I read from entirely different texts.
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1:38 pm, Jan 27, 2011

T1Brit

Jim - If by 'not blameless' you mean that the west once dominated areas of the middle east - then we are members of a very big club.

They have all been dominating each other since the time of the Hittites.

What is ridiculous is that people like you look back with a tiny lens to the very recent past - see that our great great grandfathers may have once have had colonial authority over a place...

... and for that reason you would have the only great power in the world that represents progress, democracy, freedom of the individual and economic prosperity, sit on it's hands for the rest of time and play no part in the development of the rest of the backward, poor and ignorant world.

It is the philosophy of a cowardly old auntie.
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1:19 am, Jan 28, 2011

Jim McDermott

Again, TI, you wilfully ignore or misrepresent what I say. Did I even hint we should now take 'our' hands off? NOPE. Precisely because we have form in the region (whether as part of a Big Club or not is irrelevant: culpability isn't diluted by the number of co-offenders), I regard it as our moral responsibility to at least try to put those things right that we've helped to get wrong. And it's because the US lays claim to those virtues you suggest, it has an onerous burden of responsibility that other equally or more culpable nations (I include my own) no longer have the influence to share. At the moment, it's failing in that duty.

And I'd be enormously gratified if you could attempt to respond to at least one post without resorting to rather childish, personal insults. If possible, that is.
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3:44 am, Jan 28, 2011

T1Brit

Jim, I quote you.

"We collude in crushing people's hopes"

".. had the chance to influence the political life of nations for good, but chose instead to look at only their own, selfish short-term interests "

"Part of being a grown-up is being able to take personal responsibility"

So - 

WE have crushed the hopes of the Egyptians.

WE could have transformed Egypt into a better place but chose not to.

WE are guilty and should face up to it.

This is what you are selling - and it is past it's sell-by date.

Egypt has been totally autonomous since Nasser.

The mess they are in is not our doing, no matter how much you wish it was.
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6:45 am, Jan 28, 2011

Jim McDermott

As regards Egypt, TI, very wrong. Since the Camp David Accords (ratified 1979), the US has propped up (following Sadat's murder) the increasingly authoritarian regime of Mubarak with billions of dollars - for decades now, Egypt has been the recipient of the 2nd largest annual amount of US aid, after Israel. THAT is collusion, no matter how much you wish it wasn't.
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7:35 am, Jan 28, 2011

T1Brit

Jim - 
It is true the US has provided a lot of aid.
And the booming Egyptian business class is proof of it.
I will concede that. 
Let us see what replaces Mubarak.
Perhaps then the hard reality of why the US has done so will become clear.

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2:19 pm, Jan 28, 2011

Jim McDermott

Islamist oppositions thrive precisely because no viable democratic alternatives are offered until it's too late. They thrive under police state persecution (as in the Shah's Iran - could Khomeini have come to power if Mossadegh had been allowed to continue? I doubt it) and they thrive when more moderate groups are damned for being insufficiently compliant (Hamas was the direct beneficiary of Palestinian disillusionment at Israel's continuing humiliation of Arafat and Fatah). We collude in crushing people's hopes and when they turn to the only groups who can offer realistic prospects of change, we throw up our hands and say 'See? Only authoritarianism kept the lid on'.
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1:18 am, Jan 27, 2011

T1Brit

It's strangely satisfying isn't it to believe that everything bad in the world is somehow the fault of the United States.

Makes you feel important doesn't it.
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3:44 am, Jan 27, 2011

Jim McDermott

I'm a Brit, not American, and when I say 'we' I mean, as I think you're perfectly well aware, everyone who had the chance to influence the political life of nations for good, but chose instead to look at only their own, selfish short-term interests. So yes, the US is partly to blame for its consistent support of semi-tyrannical regimes, but so are we Brits, the French and every other post-colonizing nation. Part of being a grown-up is being able to take personal responsibility, don't you think?
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4:18 am, Jan 27, 2011

T1Brit

Jim McDermott - yes I am aware of what you meant - and I should have said 'the west'. It is not just Americans who suffer from the deluded idea that the whole world revolves around them.

I wonder what the current government of Egypt would look like if there had never been any west at all.

Would it have naturally developed into a shining example of a free democratic country - or would the Pharaohs still be in charge.

You would have done a much better job of managing such events as world wars, global economic depressions and cold wars I suppose.

If only 'we' would leave the Egyptians alone. Pull the other one.
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12:12 pm, Jan 27, 2011

shana707

elBaradei should be shot. It would be best for the Egyptian people.
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8:26 pm, Jan 26, 2011

Dr_SwampGas

Shana, have I told you lately that you are truly vile? You really are.
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10:34 pm, Jan 26, 2011

Deepblack

US please revoke all support to the Egyptian regime.
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8:28 pm, Jan 26, 2011

Bob from Brooklyn

The "simple statement" that "real stability only comes with democratically elected government" is completely true.

If a government is not democratic, it inevitably uses its power to keep on running things, and, when its members brfeak the law, to protect themselves. This crosses ideological, cultural and racial lines. There's not a lot of difference between the machine-politics-run cities of 19th and early-20th century America, on the one hand, and small-town and small-city China, on the other. When a citizen went after one of the autocrats, the autocrats used their power to stop the citizen.
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8:44 pm, Jan 26, 2011

TWBBug

Whoa! This guy is serious.
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9:18 pm, Jan 26, 2011

vidiotz

I'm sorry, this was sent to me as an exclusive in my email, it it headlined as "World News" and it is clearly an editorial by the subject of the headline. This is a misrepresentation in many ways by the Daily Beast and I, for one, am disappointed.

I believe the mans message has value but I believe the Daily Beast is pushing an agenda here. So much for neutrality in the press.
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10:04 pm, Jan 26, 2011

Dr_SwampGas

I don't care what the "realists" say, I am not going to support a "secular" fascist police state out of fear that it might be replaced by a religious fascist police state.
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10:33 pm, Jan 26, 2011

T1Brit

Better to live under NAZIs than Islamo-NAZIs.

Especially if you are female.
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3:46 am, Jan 27, 2011

Dr_SwampGas

Yes, but how many women were shot, gassed, starved and used as slave laborers by the "secular" Nazis in Europe--to say nothing about the Japanese azis out in Asia--although their god was the Emperor Hirohito, of course? I'd say it was in the millions. I don't see how that's worse than the Islamic fascists.


In their defense, at least the German and Japanese Nazis could hear their little tin gods on the radio, by the Islamic nazis only hear theirs in their heads.
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11:53 am, Jan 27, 2011

T1Brit

You can still reason with a secular fascist - there is some common ground.

The Islamists are deranged in their cruelty. 

It is one thing to be shot for resisting the state, but to be stoned to death for being a normal female human being is a step worse in my opinion.
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12:29 pm, Jan 27, 2011

Osman Amir

"What bothers me about naysayers is that they still speak from the same ideological positions that blinded them to the possibility, if not even inevitability, of revolution," said Syrian poet and democracy activist Ammar Abdulhamid. "They don't see us as complex human beings and societies capable of making calculations, weighing odds and considering where our interests lie, but as caricatures, figures and puppets in the hands of extremists, autocrats, or, at times, their own Western hands."
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12:10 am, Jan 27, 2011

Osman Amir

"What bothers me about naysayers is that they still speak from the same ideological positions that blinded them to the possibility, if not even inevitability, of revolution," said Syrian poet and democracy activist Ammar Abdulhamid. "They don't see us as complex human beings and societies capable of making calculations, weighing odds and considering where our interests lie, but as caricatures, figures and puppets in the hands of extremists, autocrats, or, at times, their own Western hands."
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12:15 am, Jan 27, 2011

purenordic

...and again those who speak for america speak for the s.o.b's who suppress their people while they suckle on the washington teat. the day of reckoning is fast coming for us all over the world. our financiers export bankruptcy, our soldiers are sent globally to subdue and occupy, the government of the free and the brave rewards those who would stamp out their own citizens' freedom. and at home, cash is the only thing that talks. when we wake up, we'll realize we have been living in 1984 since before 1984. will it be too late?
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1:01 am, Jan 27, 2011

dxgmmpa

Maybe someone smarter than me can explain something to me. What the hell is a matter with to people on the middle east. 4000 years of history and they still cannot get it right.

Don't give me this shit that it is America's fault. We have only been around for 400 years.
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3:48 am, Jan 27, 2011

Jim McDermott

Yes, just 400 years, starting with a clean sheet (once the natives had been 'relocated'), and you've still managed to bugger up lots of things. The Middle East has History, alright. The region's been coveted by everyone who's passed through it. Even our own Holy Scriptures are basically a self-serving justification of the actions of one in a whole series of marauders. What we have today are the consequences of this layer-cake of crap
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5:20 am, Jan 27, 2011

T1Brit

Jim McDermott - you don't know your history. You are quoting from the back of a cereal packet.

The middle east was largely christian after the departure of the Romans - for hundreds of years - until the muslims conquered it by fire and the sword.

The crusades were an attempt to liberate the christian lands from this domination. 

Then the region spent the centuries up to world war one under the boot of the Turkish empire.

In the 20th century the 'marauders' you speak of came to drill oil wells and make the saudis the richest human beings ever to walk the face of the planet.

Get a better cereal packet before you make such farcical statements.
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12:19 pm, Jan 27, 2011

Jim McDermott

Thanks, TI. As a professional historian, I enjoy being patronized by someone who's had access to the Bumper Boys' Book of History. Your somewhat rudimentary overview reflects, I suppose, the maximum amount of information your brain could absorb on this intricate subject. Still, what you did manage to get right doesn't in any way contradict my previous post, though your acute selectivity (ignoring the many internal religious & dynastic upheavals in each of these periods and also the failed but massive incursions of the Sassanids and Mongols) did rather underplay the region's problems.

If only you'd taken your own understanding of the subject from a source as sophisticated as a cereal packet.
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1:49 am, Jan 28, 2011

T1Brit

Jim - 
If you can point to a single inaccuracy in what I wrote above, please do.
Brevity is the soul of wit, and messageboards.
I am aware of the invasions of Persians, Mongols, etc.
It changes what I am saying not one fraction.
The place is and has been rife with problems with or without western influence since the beginning of recorded history.

The only nations in the world that are interested in helping democracy to flourish in the region are western ones.

As usual.
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6:51 am, Jan 28, 2011

Jim McDermott

I didn't say that your response was inaccurate, TI; just that, apart from being gratuitously insulting, it did not in any way contradict the statement to which it responded
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7:37 am, Jan 28, 2011

T1Brit

" our own Holy Scriptures are basically a self-serving justification of the actions of one in a whole series of marauders "

I regard that statement as 'gratuitously insulting' - on behalf of the entire western world, Jim.
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2:22 pm, Jan 28, 2011

Jim McDermott

TI, you don't, and can't, speak on behalf of the Western World, you pompous so and so. Not even for that tiny minority who take their Old Testament literally.
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12:57 am, Jan 29, 2011

Designed to distract from Trump's collapsing poll numbers

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